Curse

arredondo · Jun 21, 2005, 04:17 AM // 04:17

drowningfish999:

See my friend, you have a well reasoned approach.... why show a preference over one or the other, right? Well, there are three options for Arena.net:

1) Take the PvP side, and allow them access to that portion of the game from the moment they open an account, and not force them to do any adventuring if they don't want to. PvE players, conversly, must play over 300+ hours of PvP for full PvE access. They didn't do that, that would be wrong.

2) Take the PvE side, and allow them access to that portion of the game from the moment they open an account, and not force them to do any vs. battles if they don't want to. PvP players, conversly, must play at least 300+ hours of PvE for full PvP access. They DID do that, and that IS wrong.

3). Compromise! Allow character growth through adventuring the entire PvE game: complete all missions, bonuses, queests, capture all skills and elites). Once they finish that ONE TIME, allow full access to PvP! With a 80-100 hour investment to do all of this in PvE, how can anyone say that's not fair? Forcing any repetition for enjoying an unrelated portion of the game is a grind... they saw that with the recent infuse run consolidation changes, so perhaps there is hope.

DrSLUGFly · Jun 21, 2005, 04:45 AM // 04:45

at the moment I am fully PvE and I fully agree with the OP. I will probably play and enjoy PvP eventually, but to continue the CS example.

I loved Half-Life 2, playing HL2 Multi however, I hated it... it got very annoying, boring, it just isn't my style of game (those who can say that without positing values get 2 thumbs up!

So if I had to win 100 HL2 multi games in order to play out the HL2 storyline I never would have done it. Likewise here, though I'll get into the PvP eventually, if I had to do it to play PvE then I wouldn't play PvE because either I'd get straight hooked on PvP or so annoyed with trying to do it over and over that I'd give up. (maybe not, but surely you can see the point here)

Heretics Fork · Jun 21, 2005, 05:12 AM // 05:12

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You just found out that in the expansion pack that in order to access each of the 20 missions, you must first win 100 PvP matches against 100 dfferent teams EACH TIME. And, starting from scratch with a character, you can only have your skills doled out after every 50 wins or so. How do you react? Do you promise "not to whine cuz you actually have to EARN your skills"?

Do you still feel the same when you realize that while you have to play PvP to enjoy all of PvE's content, you find out that the PvP players can do everything, 100% (with wins), in their preferred side of the game, that they don't need to go to PvE at all? So how do you react?

I have absolutely NO problem with PvP. I spend half my time doing PvE the other half PvP. I'd look forward to the game being more revolved around pvp for a storyline. I'd eat it up. I'd also still be out there actually playing the game to earn my skills and you'd still be crying about it.

Heretics Fork · Jun 21, 2005, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Ladies and gentlemen reading this thread, this poster may very well be a great guy, but the absolute ABSURDITY of his suggestion alone proves my point here. Have you ever even played anything competitvely? It's a serious question (my sister never wanted to).

Why don't I just stick with bread and water for food, seeing as how it gets all complicated choosing a variety of meals. I'm sorry amigo, but you can't possibly believe what you just wrote. I'll just believe you misspoke and move on, because if that's Arena.net's solution to us creative types that want to experiment, they won't last long with respect to the online multi-player crowd.

Can you imagine a Counter Strike cafe patron talking to his teammates before a battle challenge.... "Hey guys, go on and start without me, I gotta friggin' grind in Half-Life 2 for an hour or so to get some Att. Points back to fix up my build." Or grinding in checkers to play chess. Or grinding in Candy Land to roll the dice in Monopoly. Or even to grind in geometry questions to qualify for a spelling bee. Why go out of the competitive element to do something unrelated to the task at hand, just so you can continue with what should stand on it's own? Before you answer, remember the theme of this post:

PvE stands completely on it's own for those who wish to ignore PvP, so why not the opposite?

As I wrote above, I couldn't bring myself to do it despite my frustrations with the unecessary rigid system... case closed. So, you must have bright ideas for us to easily slave off our Att. Point deficit, right? Tell me it's not just to stick with three lines and be happy. I'm all ears for anyone to help us. I can't even farm it off right now after another session of diabolical experiments because my farming lines have 0 points in them now. What to do? How do I get 250 x 24 (6,000!) XP points without wasting what little gaming time I have on a work night, grinding for Att. Points? There HAS to be a better way.

Actually if you've ever succeeded in PvP you'd know you can't do everything and expect to be good. Are you the guy that goes into the tombs with henchies thinking he has a chance? The thing about Guild Wars is that there is no UBER build for 1 player. You have to find your area and stick with it, it's up to your team to fill in the holes. Actually if you were more of a PvPer, you'd know that it's up to you to fill in the holes of your team. Can we please stop crying about this?

Tiedye · Jun 21, 2005, 05:20 AM // 05:20

The hostility that some of these posters have towards people who take part in PvP is really strange.

Arredondo, your points are well reasoned and convincing. Anyone arguing with you either exhibits an inability to understand your points, or some strange, ingrained predjudice against PvP. I really can't understand it, but there's obviously no point in continuing to argue with these people.

Just read back through all the comments. It's really just kind of sickening that this is what Guild Wars's community has turned into.

Tuna · Jun 21, 2005, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oni No Arashi

2. Complete it once and get ALL SKILLS and MAPS OPENED? So kill the replay value of the game with multiple classes. Just pick one class (War/Mo) and get everything within the first week for a hardcore gamer? Why? So you can have everything handed to you on a silver platter.

We don't want to play PvE, you don't want to play PvP. The only funny thing here is that we understand, you on the other hand, do not.

[qoute]3. It's there. I've ascended 2 characters and by the time I was level 20, I had almost all of my skills for both characters. I was only missing elites which I've been grabbing about 2 a day for the last week or so. And I only play about 2 hours a day when I work and maybe 4 on days I don't work.[/quote]

You have roughly 260+ skills unlocked playing 2 hours a day? You also the king of Russia? Wow, and 3 olympic gold medals!

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PVP isn't being discriminated against unless you're just feeling that because all you want is PVP... GW is ONE game... PVE and PVP aspects make it up. It's not two seperate games. You're playing a game, play it all. Not just a component that makes up less then 10% of it's scope and power.

We already did play it all buddy, and now we have to play it again, and again, and again, and probably one more time after that. Saying PvP makes up less than 10% of the game suggests that you've never done it. Untill you have don't talk about things of which you have absolutely no idea.

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PVP has a few arenas, PVE has this huge map to do. It's more then 90% of the content in the game... why do you think they want you to play it?

You're right, the PvE world is big and then want us to play it. And the darndest thing happened the other day, we DID play it and it WAS big. I never want to see it again. You're also correct by saying the PvE world is 90% of the content that is given to you as the PvP arenas are quite small. Of course, by that logic we could say that de_dust is only 10% of Counter Strike. (if you don't know, dust is probably the map with the most total hours played and is a sort of cornerstone to CS)

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It's really getting tiring hearing this... "Change the game, give us PVP seperate!" It's not seperate, it's all one game.

The only people who say "sperate the game" are the little ones in your head. Nobody wants to seperate the game, we just don't want to forever sit in the hamster wheel called PvE. There's a big cage to be experienced out there.

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Again, play it or don't. But why should they basically allow people to ignore the vast majority of the game?

They do, its called PvP; you don't have to play it.

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And yet again... you don't have to do hundreds of hours of PVP. Not unless you feel the need to have EVERY skill unlocked and EVERY rune unlocked, and EVERY big of UBER weaponry out there.

Yes, I need them all. If I don't have a certain skill that may mean I can't play the 8 man build I want to. Guild Wars is about variety and options.

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Why?

Because it makes me better than or equal to the other guy.

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This game is designed where they make only the slightest advantage. And any slight advantage can be overcome by a good strategy by the other team.

An advantage is an advantage, you'd be a fool not to take it. Yes, they only make the slightest advantage, but sometimes thats enough.

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I do PVP about once a week, and win with good teams, PUG's in the battles, and I won't use anything over a minor rune. The penalties on others are just too much.

You can win the first few rounds of tombs with henchies. At least give crediable credibility.

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Why does everyone who's compaining seem to be thinking they have to UNLOCK EVERYTHING to be competitive?

Having everything unlocked allows flexibility and power. Why do you want the best parts on a racecar? They only offer marginal advantages.

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sigh yet another pvp player who wants to ruin the pve game. Go Play CS if all you want to do is PVP.

Go play WoW if all you want to do is PvE. I have yet to hear a reason why aiding the PvP game will ruin the PvE. (more at end)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perishiko ReLLiK

I didn't even read the whole thing...

First off, you're an idiot.

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First off, i'll just post this:: It's an rpg. a pvp rpg.

You're dead wrong, but feel free to defend that.

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Besides the fact that it doesnt take long to make a character and get the needed skills you want.

Uh, I want about 450 skills. I think that may take a while...

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This "grind" word i see over and over in these guild wars threads need to be torn to shreads. If you took a year to make a character, that's a grind. If you took four hours to barely gain 5% of that next lvl, then it's a grind. If you're waiting for one monster to respawn, being bored out of your mind, then it's a grind. When it takes a full month just to try and get so-so pvp items, then it's a grind. Guild wars is none of the above, and if you played through the missions, which more then likely take only about 1-3 months at the most, for an average player. You'll then have a max dmg weapon, and max armor, and alot of skills that can be used for countless combo's in pvp creations (in which you don't have to make a new character, you can start at 20!!)

This isn't a MMORPG. Grind is anything you do more than once (roughly). Just because you spent the last 5 years of your life getting some leet EQ gear doesn't mean I want to. As you may of guessed, I play FPS games primarily, however I also played way to much Diablo 2. I already farmed my ass of in D2, I don't want to do it again. Time scale doesn't matter, if you're doing some inane repetitive junk, its grind. If you disagree, try to unlock every superior rune. When you get them all give me a call, provided that is, that neither of us die in the next 10 years that the aforementioned quest will take.

There is controversey that UAX will cheapen PvE as there will be no reward system etc. I somewhat agree and somewhat disagree, however I will let you think on this:

Take the game "Red Faction" for example, it has a mildly good single player (PvE) and a really nice multiplayer (PvP. As with any FPS, you progress through the game and get new weapons etc. Of course, when you play multiplayer you can use any gun, regardless of your position in the singleplayer game. Do you feel cheated when you play MP that some other guy completely skipped the SP section of the game? Does it anger you that "he doesn't have experience with the weapons" and "didn't work to get them?"

In anticipation for flames, I will say the line gets a little fuzzy here because GW is a single game, not 2. However, is not the character you finish SP with the same as the one you play MP with? (PvE char in PvP) The guy who didn't play SP can't barge into your SP game with his decked out MP char. (PvP onlys are just that; PvP only) How would UAX really effect a PvE player?

The bottom line is: it doesn't. There may be some phsycological barrier here that doesn't allow you to accept the above mentioned scenario in Guild Wars because you had to grind (oops, what was that?) to get your PvE equipment. Even if you believe that the PvPer has an advantage over you (with UAX he probably would) there is nothing stopping you from making a PvP char of your own IDENTICLE to your PvE. Hmm... no roleplay loss there.

I'm interested to hear your responces. Make 'em civil and make sure you read the whole thing.

-Tuna, member of DrkH

edit: Tiedye: there is hostility (as seen in my own post here) toward PvE people because we show them our side in well explained posts nearly every single day and yet the still blabber on nonintelligently. Our patience is wearing thin.

Heretics Fork · Jun 21, 2005, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Well I need to apologize for coming off harsh, but I defend BOTH sides of the game. I'm involved in each. But for people to throw a complete fit because they sampled something in beta and it's not that way for the actual game is ridiculous. People need to look at things objectively, yes a PvP'er can disagree with you.

I don't totally disagree with having all the skills unlocked, BUT, I'm against it for Guild Battles. I think if you're gonna be ranked on it, you should have earned the skills that got you there. Now if it's the tombs or competition arenas, yeah, give me them skills. I don't feel left out or anything because finding skills is something we all have to go thru.

I find the PvE environment enjoyable with a decent storyline, however I'm far too competitive to just focus on PvE for very long. I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels this way, but I don't think anyone is being discriminated against. IMO the only thing I would change is some of the Guild Hall layouts which I'm sure will happen in the future. In the meantime can't we all TRY to enjoy the game?

Schorny · Jun 21, 2005, 08:25 AM // 08:25

The 'mirror' examples like "you have to win a few hundred billion PvP matches against ueber aliens that kill you with just looking at you" to get to the next EA.

OMG.
You guys are funny.

And you are just so narrow minded. Why? I'll tell you.
You only see PvP. And that's it. It is nice, that you see at least a bit, but there is also PvE and PvE/PvP. All your (or most of your) suggestions would just upset the people the game was designed for: the PvE/PvP people.

These are the people that enjoy to play through PvE and then battle each other with their toons in PvP. Consider this people and rethink your 'solutions':

Unlock All Skills when finishing the game:
It would defeat the purpose of replaying the game. So you effectively killed the PvE part.

Unlock All Skills for PvP only chars:
Great. No every PvE player has to throw his toon in the garbage to be competetive? And I don't mean because of all the skills the PvP player has, but of the flexibility. A PvP only char at the moment is quite flexible, but because the skills need to be unlocked, the flexibility is not that big. So just a slight advantage for PvP only here, which is fine.

Separate PvP and PvE for a UAS - League:
It is one game and not 2. You would upset all PvE players.

More Skillpoints needed:
Yes indeed. But anet is working on it. And the last update (fixed xp needed for lvl up) is great. Just go a few times thorugh the underworld and you'll have a lot of skill points.
Maybe the SoC should cost 0 skillpoints, maybe, I don't know. But anet is working on it, so no need to whine here

I don't want to run through this game a hundred times:
You don't need to. You can unlock the most important skills for 4 classes. So you have quite a bit of flexibility to play around in PvP.
I also don't think that you truly need all skills per class. And I don't think you can master any class combination so easily. Of course, there are really good people who can - and for them (be best 5% of guild wars players) every single skill count, but I can hardly believe that so many people are that good.

And just a thought: take a sunday afternoon with some of your friends and run a char through the game. Just do the missions and ignore the bonus - you'll ascend in the evening. So you got about 20 more skill points. Of course, this is grind, but it isn't really bad. It is like "hey, I want that nice armour - oh, it costs a millionen bucks? mhm, I got to go farming". Sometimes it needs work to get what you want. You don't NEED all the skills, you don't NEED to have all that stuff - it is nice to have (no doubt) but you really don't NEED it. You can put afford in it to get it (and let's face it: the afford required is very low).

Of course, it can be made easier for you. But please, please, please, please stop saying "there is no drawback if we do X", because there IS one. A major drawback. You are just too narrow minded (or careless) to see it. Just don't be focused on: "how can we make PvP better" try to focus on "how can we make GW better".

arredondo · Jun 21, 2005, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heretics Fork

Well I need to apologize for coming off harsh, but I defend BOTH sides of the game. I'm involved in each. But for people to throw a complete fit because they sampled something in beta and it's not that way for the actual game is ridiculous. People need to look at things objectively, yes a PvP'er can disagree with you.

I don't totally disagree with having all the skills unlocked, BUT, I'm against it for Guild Battles. I think if you're gonna be ranked on it, you should have earned the skills that got you there. Now if it's the tombs or competition arenas, yeah, give me them skills. I don't feel left out or anything because finding skills is something we all have to go thru.

I find the PvE environment enjoyable with a decent storyline, however I'm far too competitive to just focus on PvE for very long. I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels this way, but I don't think anyone is being discriminated against. IMO the only thing I would change is some of the Guild Hall layouts which I'm sure will happen in the future. In the meantime can't we all TRY to enjoy the game?

I played one beta event, and only tried PvE. This is all about common sense, like a coach not requiring a player to play three rounds ping-pong before putting him into the football game.

I just got through a full month thoroughly enjoying my slow trek through PvE. I all but ignored PvP knowing it would be there when I was ready. I've had more fun in PvE than just about any other non-competitive videogame for at least 5 years. More than Half-Life 2, console titles, you name it. This game is awesome and I can't wait for the PvE expansion pak.... BUT! I'm done with it. Leave me and PvP in peace please!

Tonight I am almost banging my head against the wall because I'm AGAIN out of Attribute Refund points and I have a dozen or so builds I want to test in arena. I work in the morning and almost half my time tonight is WASTED, grinding out in the desert trying desparately to get quick XP (125 a fight now, sadly) only so I can afford to make my true farming build.

Only then can I go and farm the 24 full points (6,000 XP!!!) so I can blow it all again on maybe 2 test builds for the Arenas, I'll jot down my findings in my notebook, then I am forced again to go back to PvE for mindless grinding again. ARRRRRGGHH!!! Why does it have to be so stupidly hard to enjoy PvP?!?!?!?

I can't continue like this, so I plan to wait for the Wednesday changes, and if they don't repair at least Att. Refunds, I'll take my first break from GW to test out the new Battlefield release. I'll then check in every Wednesday to see if progress is made towards ending this PvP discrimination in a significant way.

It's a shame I can't ask my fighting game buddies, who are ULTRA competitive in stuff like this, to pick up Guild Wars despite how fantastic I think it is. We wouldn't be able to even dream that a competitive-type game exists that requires soooooo much of grinding against dumb computer A.I. (after beating it all), just to be able to play a barely flexible competitive game against each other. Wednesday can't get here soon enough.

arredondo · Jun 21, 2005, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schorny

The 'mirror' examples like "you have to win a few hundred billion PvP matches against ueber aliens that kill you with just looking at you" to get to the next EA.

OMG.
You guys are funny.

And you are just so narrow minded. Why? I'll tell you.
You only see PvP. And that's it. It is nice, that you see at least a bit, but there is also PvE and PvE/PvP. All your (or most of your) suggestions would just upset the people the game was designed for: the PvE/PvP people.

Is reading comprehension that difficult for some people? How can you go through this thread and possibly say that? We can disagree on opinions, but you are stating something that is flatly incorrect.

How can me and my supporters here ONLY see PvP as you put it when we've put in 150+ hours in pure PvE? AGAIN I'll say I did ALL the missions, the bonuses, the side quests, I got ALL the skills, I captured all but one of the elites the hard way before they turned the Signet of Capture system into a lame Boss ATM machine exercise:

(dragon dies) "Welcome! Please insert SoC card, and choose your language. Do you wish to withdraw Greneth's Balance or come back another time? Have a pleasant day and thank you for stopping by the Dragon's Lair."

They could've allowed ONLY elite captures on bosses so mistakes can be avoided, forced the bosses to spam the elites once the conditions were met, then after he cast the elite once, allow the players to capture it anytime before he died. That's a nice compromise before they completely trashed the old system.

I'm part of the proud -60%DP Althea's Ashes Walking Zombie club, who didn't need a nerf to grit it out until the end. I'm part of the dejected Villainy of Galrath's Was Avenged But All I Got Was a Lousy 500 XP club.... I can go on and on. Please don't sit there and try to say that ANY of us don't respect the PvE game and how important it is for Guild Wars. I got 160 hours of PvE time to back up my support of both (in perspective). Do you have 160 hours of PvP time to show YOU support both? I thought so.

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These are the people that enjoy to play through PvE and then battle each other with their toons in PvP. Consider this people and rethink your 'solutions':

Unlock All Skills when finishing the game:
It would defeat the purpose of replaying the game. So you effectively killed the PvE part.

No, PvE is in hibernation until the expansion comes out (or at least the new areas this summer.) We both finished PvE (presumably), now you go repeat those sections in pure PvE a dozen times if you wish to save up for your shiny new 75K Armour set. I don't care.

Replaying ANY adventure game on my shelf is a ridiculous proposition, so I'm ready to dive headfirst into pure PvP - YOU are the one being selfish in forcing your way on us who did 100+ hours of PvE and want to move on. You talk of it being one game, have YOU put in 100+ hours of PvP? If you had, were you forced to? After finishing PvE, why force me to do it again?

My way allows each to first prove himself in PvE, THEN give the option of how to play their game. I don't care how you play GW, so why do you care so much how I play? Which brings us to....

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You don't NEED all the skills, you don't NEED to have all that stuff - it is nice to have (no doubt) but you really don't NEED it. You can put afford in it to get it (and let's face it: the afford required is very low).

Of course, it can be made easier for you. But please, please, please, please stop saying "there is no drawback if we do X", because there IS one. A major drawback. You are just too narrow minded (or careless) to see it. Just don't be focused on: "how can we make PvP better" try to focus on "how can we make GW better".

Why thank you Big Brother for telling me what I need and don't need. I truly appreciate you dwarfing my creativity to convince me it's for my own good.

In 3D one-on-one fighting games, there are some characters that by themselves have over 200 skills to attack or move with. I've spent eight years playing a few characters in particular to understand the application and productive use of as many of their moves as i can for my style of play. TRUST me - you have no idea what innovations one can come up with in making cool builds in Guild Wars if they have the entire palette in front of them.

The potential is there for the willing among us to tackle the depth of PvP as if we were admitted as freshmen into MIT or Cal Tech. Arena.net up to this point chooses instead to slow down our growth, giving us big yellow blocks to squeeze into round holes. I don't want your templates, I have no more use for computer A.I., I've been there, done that several times in regards to PvE (half the missions require two or three passes to get all that you need to beat it).... please let us play PvP and ignore a FINISHED PvE, just as PvE people have always been able to ignore PvP.

Louis Ste Colombe · Jun 21, 2005, 09:29 AM // 09:29

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Originally Posted by Spark

Except what if the builds we can make simply suck. There are some builds with the current metagame that will simply die almost NO MATTER what. A lot of people only have 1 PvE Character...hence 1 PvP character with their skills. Which means we are limited to one build.

No room for creativity.

No room to adapt.

No room to...win.

Quite simply, it has forced me to ignore requsts from guildmates and friends because they don't fit the current build. This is really frustrating to me, and picking up random people always leaves room for the random noob too. I'd like to PvP with people I can trust but I can't because we don't have time to unlock all skills on our own.

1 build with 1 Character? uh? Really?

Don't all characters got like 8/9 attributes? How many builds can you make out of 8/9 attributes?

Focusing on plot quest+skill quest, chances are you won't have to buy skills, you'll have way too many skill points for elite capturing, so your skill point will go for your 3rd profession...

Let's pick 2 class, +20 skills of a third (that you can buy later), and see how many builds we can make out of that.

I am a firm believer than constraint is a strong incentive for creative strategy... If you want we can try to come up with "counter" builds to flavor of the month with 2 classes +20 skills and see if we can get it to work (that's going to make assumption on the whole team though... and on metagaming).
Yes, that's a challenge

2 classes +20 skills of a 3rd

. From there let's try to make a dozen builds, plus some counter to flavor of the months that could fit in a team...

I also enjoy it more when I make the best out of my small toolbox, try to come up with ideas that are unique to my skill pools, and see if they work.

Let's face it; isn't the purpose of UAS to be able to copycat the flavor of the month? (I am not saying that Spark is doing this...).
If that is what everyone means by "being competitive", that's kind of sad...

Louis,

Loviatar · Jun 21, 2005, 02:33 PM // 14:33

i thought a dedicated pvp character had unlimited refund points as well as access to everything that had been unlocked.

if this is true why not use 1 slot for pvp the way most other pvp people do?

just a question and if that information is wrong please forgive my mistake

arredondo · Jun 21, 2005, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

i thought a dedicated pvp character had unlimited refund points as well as access to everything that had been unlocked.

if this is true why not use 1 slot for pvp the way most other pvp people do?

just a question and if that information is wrong please forgive my mistake

I thought of that in my desparation to be able to explore my ideas. Not once had I tried the PvP-only character mode, but I went ahead and took the 10 minutes to make a copy of my character (without access to my weapons sadly) and threw him into the Arenas for testing my newest build ideas.

Guess what? Once you use your Refund points, you don't get them back. The penalty is even worse in PvP only... the game won't let you go to the PvE sections to grind your 6,000 XP! You have to slave it off in PvP action, which means a measly 300 XP for a win, which requires a 15-20 win streak JUST to try out a cool new build idea! I was forced to delete the character, spend another 10 minutes (grind!) to rebuild him again just to try something new. Oh man, how can anyone defend that design decision?

There's a new issue however on the Refund problem. I'll make a new thread on it.

Heretics Fork · Jun 21, 2005, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

I thought of that in my desparation to be able to explore my ideas. Not once had I tried the PvP-only character mode, but I went ahead and took the 10 minutes to make a copy of my character (without access to my weapons sadly) and threw him into the Arenas for testing my newest build ideas.

Guess what? Once you use your Refund points, you don't get them back. The penalty is even worse in PvP only... the game won't let you go to the PvE sections to grind your 6,000 XP! You have to slave it off in PvP action, which means a measly 300 XP for a win, which requires a 15-20 win streak JUST to try out a cool new build idea! I was forced to delete the character, spend another 10 minutes (grind!) to rebuild him again just to try something new. Oh man, how can anyone defend that design decision?

There's a new issue however on the Refund problem. I'll make a new thread on it.

Um. Delete the PvP that you're out of refund points on and recreate him? Man this is getting too sad. I'm done reading and commenting on this one. Have fun, hope you get something worked out to your liking.

Spark · Jun 21, 2005, 08:35 PM // 20:35

It takes you 10 minutes to rebuild your character? Seriously once you've already made him it shouldn't take that long. I agree with the last poster that uh, refund points arn't a problem at ALL in PvP. It's all about deleting/remaking PvP characters which doesn't take very long after getting used to the system (takes what, 5, 10 minutes)

Back to UAS and such discussion.

Quote:

Let's face it; isn't the purpose of UAS to be able to copycat the flavor of the month?

Possibly for some, but as you said, that's not what I want to do! I have played lots of Magic: TG and I must say that my favorite tournaments are the ones that allow Proxies (IE Fake cards [I play Type 1 so cards are expensive]). It allows everyone to fully explore their ideas and play at their full potential despite what they own. Yes, some people will use it to make perfect copy cat builds, but others will use it to explore classes they havent had the time to unlock in PvE.

I think in the end it will improve competition. The FotM will be more pronounced, but people will be able to produce counter strategies much more readily, which I think is more healthy for the enviroment as a whole.

Loviatar · Jun 21, 2005, 08:38 PM // 20:38

arredondo

obviously i was misinformed on my information about the pvp refund points

my apologies

Stauf · Jun 21, 2005, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heretics Fork

Um. Delete the PvP that you're out of refund points on and recreate him? Man this is getting too sad. I'm done reading and commenting on this one. Have fun, hope you get something worked out to your liking.

Um. Why should you have to delete a pvp character every time you want to try a new bulid? I mean since you can do that why not just do away with the refund points, huh? Not to mention it defeats the purpose of fame and ranks if you delete your character. BTW, what are you so sad about?

OddGod · Jun 21, 2005, 08:40 PM // 20:40

I apologize if I am responding with something that has already been said, looked and missed it if so.

Refund points are necessary. Or at the very least, people should not be able to switch attributes in mid-match. This enables people with serious micro-managing to bump up particular stats and switch them on a whim when they want to cast a different spell.

Is there something I am missing here? That's obvious right? No sarcasm intended.

Stauf · Jun 21, 2005, 08:42 PM // 20:42

"Is there something I am missing here?"

Yeah, I think so. I think most people here are saying you should be able to switch your attributes around in TOWN, not in the middle of a battle. That would be ridiculous.

Edit: yeah drowningfish, that's what I meant. Add the word "infinitely" in between "around" and "in town" if that helps.

drowningfish999 · Jun 21, 2005, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Um, you already CAN switch attributes in mid-battle, skill points are the one you need to be in a town for. People are looking for the ability to change attributes in town without the 24 refund point restriction.